Vishram Gupta, noted writer and social activist, conducted this interview with me for publication in the Marathi Lokmat. The interview appeared in Lokmat on 9 and 10 April, 2014.

1. Since this is an election time, do you think the closure of mining operation will impact the forthcoming elections in Goa in one way or the other?

Yes, of course. No political party can say it does not want mining or what they call “legal mining” to start. The solution, however, has been taken out of the hands of the government, centre and state, BJP and Congress, because under these regimes and with their active support, illegal mining resulted in huge losses to public wealth.

Now every time this happens, the country always turns to the Courts. The Courts do not decide on the basis of constituency or caste or creed or even employment. They go by the law. That takes time, because legal issues take time to be considered. The Court has to take into consideration what all people, especially the governments, have to, say. So even if we have a single party ruling at the centre as a result of this election, the decision will still remain outside the political domain for some time at least. If politicians claim otherwise, don’t believe them. In any case, no one in Goa anymore believes what the politicians say, at least on mining and when it will restart.

2. In the Goan context, as far as mining of iron ore is concerned, can we draw the line between plunder and mining of these natural resources which belong to State?

The resources belong not to the State but to the people of the state. The state of Goa owns the ore on behalf of the people of the state. During the Portuguese period, the state granted leases to certain individuals and companies to exploit the ore and pay a small charge to the state. But all that is now changing.

The question we ask today is, if the ore belongs to the people of the State, why is the income from the sale of it going to a few private families and pockets? Nearly half is going to a company (Sesa Goa) controlled from London. There is not much difference between a natural resource like iron ore and gold. If you owned 100 gms of gold, but sold it through a middle-man who had to carry it to the market, and deduct his expenses, would you be happy if he pocketed 90% or even 50% of the income from the sale and gave you the rest? You would give him what would be his expenses, and maybe a little more, but not 90%!

In the case of iron ore, the State of Goa should have got 90% of the value of the ore, but we know it got less than 1% in most years, a little above that in the last two years, when it got 10% of the invoice price as royalty. So, many mine owners just prepared false invoices and paid low royalties. The mines department just looked the other way. In the 5 year period 2004-2009, we have calculated Goa lost ore to the extent of Rs.48,000 crores (exported to China). What we are saying is that money should have gone to the people of the state. It didn’t. If only 50% of that amount (Rs.24,000 cr) had been put into a permanent fund in the year 2000, we would be getting right now interest of 750 cr every year (@3%) without mining for ever. So the people of Goa are still sleeping about it. If they knew what has happened, they would be furious! When you wake someone from a deep sleep, as we have done with this case in the Supreme Court, you are bound to be irritable and angry. But you will have a different response when you know the truth.

Shah Commission estimated a Rs.35,000 crore loss from ore extracted from outside the lease area. That is because mining companies mined an additional 500 ha outside their leases. That money too is gone. The Goa government is not keen to reclaim it. If you put all the losses together, the people of Goa lost over 100,000 crore, which is more than the budget of Goa for the next 20 years! What this means is if the government actually had got that money, most Goans would have been able to pay for their education, health and other costs, including getting land for a house, a good job, as a matter of right. Now they look upon these things (including laptops) as a favour or largesse given by government. The money is actually theirs and it is simply being returned in extremely tiny amounts. Bulk of it has been already stolen.

3. You have been advocating the cause of protection of State owned natural resources, including iron ore, ever since Goa Foundation came into existence, about thirty years ago. How would you see the success of GF in this crucial battle to conserve the State owned resources?

The economy is part of the ecology or part of the environment. For example, if we do not have rain or good monsoon, the economy suffers. If there is failure of one monsoon, all our agriculture would die. Similarly, we get our water now free of cost almost. But mining is destroying our water sources: ask anyone living in the mining areas. We are destroying our forests, public and private. This is also leading to water shortages, since forests conserve water. Don’t forget it is the destruction of paddy fields that forced most people into mining jobs like operating trucks..

The Goa Foundation has worked to protect forests, beaches, pure air, water, biodiversity, wildlife and the Western Ghats because if these are kept in good state of health, Goa as a society can live forever and our children will be able to live without anxiety. But if any one of these is destroyed by ill-planned development, our next generation will find life more and more difficult. Take the case of fish, for example. We have been fighting for a monsoon ban of 4 months. No one wants to listen. So now we find we cannot afford even the little fish that is coming in. We are giving our children fanciful educational opportunities, but we are taking away their access to food, water and air. What kind of parents have we become? Are we not cheating the next generation by stealing their future?

4. The current political leadership of Goa, which made a big noise about illegal mining when it was in opposition, is now vehemently arguing for starting the mining operation as soon as possible. Do you think it is possible and advisable to start mining operation now because it is the top priority of the ruling regime?

The mining lease holders, both individuals and companies, have together made such a mess of mining, environment, wildlife and forest laws, that it is going to take some time before they can think of resuming any mining. I am only telling you what I think is the truth. I am not a politician, so I do not have to lie or to hoodwink the public. Whatever I say, I have said on oath in the Supreme Court and I have broadcast all these affidavits and statements on the internet. I have not stopped mining, as everyone knows, since the Supreme Court acted only after the Goa government and the Central Congress Government closed the mines. But I will claim the responsibility for the start of good mining, when that happens. Restart of mining is a top priority for the ruling regime because they get to share in the income which comes in the form of donations and illegal party contributions from illegally mined ore. In my opinion, the Goa government handled the case very inefficiently in the Supreme Court. In fact, they hired a lawyer for Rs.7.5 lakh a day. I would not have paid him more than Rs.5000 because he was totally unprepared.

5. What is the exact status of this case which is pending before the Supreme Court of India?

The hearing is completed. Judgement is around the corner. That judgement is expected to clarify several issues which may prevent the kind of scenario we faced in the past 6-7 years. It should make mining less of a burden or nuisance to both people and environment.

6. Has the court been able to determine what is legal mining, as opposed to what is illegal mining in Goa? Will the criterion of ‘legal mining’, set by the apex court be acceptable to the mine owners and the State administration?

The Court will of course decide what is legal mining and what is illegal mining. What it will say about this one cannot prejudge in any way. We have to await the judgement. Only then will things become clear, as they did in Bellary mining, which was decided by the Supreme Court before it took up the Goa mining case.

7. The political leadership and the opposition both believe that Goa Foundation is totally opposed to mining operations in Goa. They have been targeting you, rather mischievously, ever since you knocked on the doors of Supreme Court to halt illegal mining. Can you clear the air on this issue for the last time?

They have targetted me, the unions have targetted me. But it is also true that they have targetted each other. Parrikar has blamed the Congress, the police, the mines department, the Supreme Court, everyone that comes to his mind. Congress has blamed the BJP and a host of other players. Blame game is of no use. Goa Foundation went to court because:

a) public money and public resources were being looted and illegally exported;

b) People’s health and peace of mind were getting a beating in mining areas;

c) The environment was being butchered, forests were disappearing, waters, rivers, nallahs were being polluted, water aquifers were being destroyed, several laws were being broken. The government was supporting the miners. No officials were willing to act. Some even acted in collusion with the miners.

All these concerns are valid concerns. We have been proven right by the CEC, and the new report filed by the Expert Committee on Integenerational Equity. Other reports like the Gadgil report on EIAs have also supported our stand.

8. Goa today is split between those who want mining and those who oppose it. The environmentalists, the ordinary citizens who live in mining areas and the traditional farmers are happy because the lull in the operation has given them new hope of revival of ecology, pollution free atmosphere, safe roads and profitable agriculture. The mine owners, the trade unionists, the mining dependant people of which there is a huge number, and the political leadership is unhappy about this closure. Can we hope to bring about some reconciliation between these opposing camps for the good of Goa? What is your blue print for this settlement?

Well, it is important to underline that mining as it was done in the past 6-7 years is going to be a thing of the past. Mining in Goa will never be the same. Mining may re-start, but on a very small scale. It is this scaling down of operations that has to be properly handled. Only a few MLAs who own trucks should not get the jobs to transport ore. There should be a system of lots. Only those in the area close to the mine should be allowed to participate and everything should be done by lots. Only trucks registered with the government should be benefitted. Mining on the earlier scale is not possible. People should understand this. Don’t listen to politicians. They are simply unwilling to tell the truth even if they know the truth because it is their habit to seek cheap popularity.

9. The political leadership has been rightfully concerned about the fate of workers who depended heavily on the fifty years old mining operation for their survival. If the mining operation is called off for ever, as some believe it may, then how does one solve the problem of unemployment in the mining belts of Goa?

This is a difficult question to answer because I can reply with figures and data, but that is not going to solve any problem. We have been insisting that the Government prepare a mining areas rehabilitation, repair and restoration plan. Supreme Court has now asked a special committee to do it. If the plan is ready and approved, we can employ all the people presently employed directly in the industry, including the truckers. Why the government is not willing to move ahead on this is beyond my comprehension. There are 750 million tonnes of earth and reject material lying across the mining areas. All this, according to the government itself, is to be removed and returned to the mining pits or sold. But Government is still insisting that this job be left in the hands of the mining lobbies who have shown by their behaviour in the past 6-7 years that they can be more corrupt than Government in their handling of the iron ore business. We are not acceptable to mining being re-started by private lease owners or mining companies.

10. How do you see Goa’s future in days to come? Do you think the tourists industry is better off without mining? Can it generate enough revenue to offset the loss the State has been suffering on account of closure of mining operations for the past two years?

On present indications, yes. Goa’s GDP growth rate is 8.4% over the past two years, without mining. This is adequate for high employment. Any unemployment will be naturally absorbed in a couple of years. Compare this with the less than 5% growth rate of India as a whole. Or the 1% GDP growth rate of the advanced countries.

However, much depends on how we manage tourism. Right now, Goa is one of the worst administered tourist destinations in the world. No law prevails. People charge what they want. There are no standards. In addition, because of the constant interference of politicians, no one violating any laws or destroying any part of the beach is punished. The sandy beaches are slowly eroding; the sand dunes are being destroyed. There are hundreds of CRZ violations. Very soon, tourists will not know why they are coming to Goa. They came for its natural beauty. If you kill that with rampant and ill-managed tourism, we will have lost everything.

11. You have been arguing for the state controlled mining in Goa. Do you think, this is a feasible idea in a globalized economy where state controls are becoming an anathema to the prevailing idea of material progress? Will state controls not bring back corruption?

We are not asking for nationalisation of the mining industry, because there is no need for that. The ore already belongs to the State of Goa. Private industry has only been allowed to extract and sell it on behalf of the State. In the past, private miners and companies did what they want on the lease. Government could not be bothered, so long as the political leaders were looked after by the mining lobby.

What we are demanding now is that the leases should all be cancelled, and the GSIDC or any other public sector corporation take over the control over mineral extraction. This is not far fetched, since GSIDC is now operating a coal mining lease allocated to it in the State of Chattisgarh. So it is not a strange thing for the Goa government to do. If there is a corporation, it will manage the areas where there is ore, hand out extraction contracts, collect the ore, auction it to the highest bidder and put all the money earned into a Permanent Fund which cannot be touched even by the Goa Government. The Government will be able to utilise only the interest of the Fund. The Fund’s capital will double every year till all the ore is exhausted. But when the ore is over, we will still have with us the value of the ore that has been exhausted in terms of money or other assets under the control of the Permanent Fund.

12. Would Goa Foundation welcome an initiative where the environmentalists, unionists and the state administration come together to hammer out an acceptable solution to the current mining problem? Would you, as an activist like to be part of such deliberation?

Of course. We are ready to join forces with anyone and everyone. We have supported the trucking industry, we have supported the workers. We have insisted on them being compensated for their losses. Goa government cannot claim it does not have the money. For example, it will earn huge amount from the sale of illegal ore which is now going on. This is a windfall earning. It can be used precisely to solve such problems. Since the CM is so busy with running all the departments of all the ministers, and also running across the country, there is no one to pay attention to these problems. So they can only add up and get worse.

(Interview was conducted on 4^th April 2014)